The Extravaganza EP 3 - Connecting Stories

This is episode three.

We've started recording. How did you record? When it picks up a hand, it starts recording. So now this just happened. Okay, so I guess now we start.

Go for it. Warm cold. This is this is episode 3. Sarah. Hi. Would you like to introduce yourself? I'm Sarah. I'm the co -founder and CEO of Folktale.

And uh and uh uh our purpose is to connect people who know and have stories with those Who need to know them that's a good start it's a really good start um so i met Sarah at their oscars event x years ago two three years ago it was a customer event yeah Yeah it was a celebration of story excellence in a particular kind of community group across like eight To ten countries in the pacific and they're celebrating the achievements they were doing and I remember our

Conversation because we had just arrived in Canberra and um and what was great is that the whole Celebration was nothing to do about technology right and we're a technology company and it was all about The celebration of what the people had achieved the stories of celebration all the ways of connection, the Ways they're connecting through, you know, through our platform.

So we were really much in service of what the individuals and the communities and the partners had Been able to do themselves because we were supporting them.

I will describe how I remember the event and what I got from it. There were a lot of communities that were,

From my understanding, the thing of like, let's say you're getting stories from one place to another to The people need to hear it. It was to do with whether, was it aid that was given?

Yeah, that's the development sector. Yeah, like in the development sector. And then they were effectively providing reporting

Back in a way that was natural, real, and authentic, rather than writing a 40 -page document. Written report, often a different language that people often don't read.

So the The whole approach to how we're communicating and connecting evidence, anecdotes to outcomes, that's sort of The place where we sit. It's really disconnected. We have lots of information.

Often it's numbers and it's not really human. So how do we actually start to bring in personal experiences and human insight that often gets missed In a lot of the complex work that organizations often do?

Why does that matter? Yeah, it's a great question. Why does it matter? I think we're wired for stories as humans, right? Like we're talking about our experiences and the ways in which we connect through conversation.

And yet we're making decisions on very non -human things, on numbers and reports and things that are Actually missing the richness and the depth of what actually happens.

So if you think about, like, information gathering, we really want to understand what happens within ongoing programs Or initiatives. We want to know, are we doing a good job?

Are we achieving the things we want to achieve? And the system that it often sits within is do reports, give us some numbers. And those are good.

Those are important. I'm not saying that that's not right. I think it's just missing a lot of you're missing data and qualitative data stories in the form Of multimedia not just written but verbal visual just the ways in which we connect there's so much That's being missed so what does that mean for actually making more informed decisions trusting that you have So much evidence or sharing of reflections and moments that can really help you move the needle on Decision you're making on ongoing basis.

So it matters because we're human, I think. Yeah.

It's especially this comes up, let's say like, or AI space is moving so fast. But I used to say a few months ago, at least how important it is that we have The context, not just the text, Correct.

And artificial intelligence or large language models have been trained with a lot of the text. They hadn't yet got the richness of the context, which has made it a bit drier.

Yeah. And then you can imagine that's why the decision -making was not going to be quite as good. And the more modality, fidelity, and context of the experience is what matters.

Yeah. It's like bringing it to the AI. Have you seen the thing in AI where people are always testing it where it's like, I have My car's dirty, I need to go to the car wash, it's 100 meters away, do I drive A walk?

And the AI always says to walk, right? Because it never had an experience of a body. Of course it's going to answer that way. In the same way, if you're going to then make decisions based on other people's sort of experience, And all you have is a document.

Yeah you have a document that has outputs outputs outputs we delivered x number of workshops we were Able to do y number of things but those are a lot of activities that don't necessarily say Have we achieved the ultimate outcomes we're trying to do all of those things accumulate to what do Good outcomes look like for all of us right and how do we do that in a really Simple streamlined an effective way that enables all types of people in the ecosystem to engage and participate.

How do you define a story? A story, oh my goodness, that's a really great question because I think the word story has been Taken apart and used in different ways.

A story is a telling and retelling of events in your own perspective. Whether it's true or not, it's a moment in time. It's part of information you have.

And a story can be built by many different ways in terms of the expression of a story. It can be multimedia, visual, written, you know, in terms of the medium itself.

But as simple as it gets, a story is just telling and retelling of events. That's important to you. Is that part of the, I guess, Pressure where it's an experiential and subjective thing, storytelling, that makes it difficult for having productionization for business Is that why we've moved we evolved into a world without it and now we swung too far And we need to recalibrate what do you think it's a great question i think that i don't Think it'S a simple question i Think that we're trying to make sense of things in an easy

And fast way and oftentimes you can take a number and you can say great we can kind Of make sense as quickly as possible but the nuance and depth is often is what's missing, right?

And I think we swung one way to try and make some decisions, whether they be right or Wrong, in one direction. Interestingly, now, everyone's kind of seeking that, you know, that richness and that depth, even regulators are saying, We want to hear, actually, we want to have this understanding of grounded knowledge coming directly from different Perspectives.

And often, that's really hard to do. And so it's not that we like, I think I think we do it because often the system Itself, it costs a lot of money.

If you were to look at traditional approaches, really expensive to go and connect on an individual basis To hear from different perspective. It's faster to say, oh, there was 100 people there, we've met the milestone.

I think it's a complex system -wide conversation around why we've swung one way, but I think as Emergence of AI, the emergence of all this new kind of approaches of working, people are now starting To talk about, and we're seeing this faster, the notion of what connection means, the notion what the Human experience can mean amongst this really interesting fast -paced environment where truth and, you know, complexity is Coming in.

What do you think?

I am really lucky i have a great upbringing from my parents my dad for me it always Dropped these little like one line truth bombs because a poet and a scientist and i've gone through A lot of stuff as well i'll definitely be interviewing him at some and it's those snapshots of Stories that are in a sentence that are foundational to me that I use to guide me.

And that's sort of why I like writing poetry as well and I have so many mantras because These are the narratives or the schema because it's a schema, right?

You do the thing to shortcut to be able to get somewhere and how can I add more Complexity to that? It has to be creative. It has be hitting something in the human condition to be be able have to expand into something That is actually going to drive me to be moving towards an outcome, right?

Absolutely. Like my personal mission is to decrease otherness while simultaneously increasing individual safety. Yes. And between those two paradoxes, those pressures, I believe that's the thing that will allow me to drive Forward.

So that's how I've used the story to get me a direct outcome rather than just measuring have I done a chapter box. So I use stories in that way quite a lot.

It's, I suppose,

When there's things with mathematics and numbers and for the machinery of business, it's, uh,

I try to connect them as much as possible as well. Yeah. But that takes tricky math and we've managed to do a bit of a familiar, like we've got Our own, we defined our own I guess currency unit for the AI usage that we have control Over.

So now I can make it accounting for carbon credits so I know it's green thought moving along And this and that so you have to you have develop complexity and I see that

Especially in like storytelling pitching trying to get results and in business everyone's like make it simpler make It simple I don't necessarily believe people are looking for simplicity but I think they look for elegance And i call elegance finding like the simple path in complexity and then it's like an elegant sort Of thing that's what's i try to strike out of things to get effective results yeah

That's to me a story is like the narrative we have to be able to like a schema It cuts through, right? It has that elegance. And one of the things we talk about with story is speak to the heart to move the Mind.

And to do that, that's really difficult sometimes to do, right. How do you do that? Is there a distinction between the heart and the mind?

Is there distinction? I think they're somewhat connected. They're very much connected, but it's more what moves what. Oftentimes, if you think about, depending on the individuals, are you driven by visuals?

Like if you see something and you want to eat it right do you smell it first you See it first you taste it first do you think about it first right some people you know Just in terms of even having i'm gonna have you thought um have you heard of something called Aphantasia i was gonna say i have it i have severe aphantasia yeah wow we both have aphantasha There you go however dave doesn't if i can tell him hey i want pasta tonight he can

Close and visualize it in 3d and be able to like have picture on picture and and so Then when i'm like actually i've changed my mind i think i want you know i think I Want tacos and said no no no i have visualized it it's ready to go and i'm not Like no no it doesn't matter to me but that visual response so going back to your question It all depends on now the input of how you how you connect all the different parts of

Your body which are connected yeah but fun that you have aphantasia i haven't met a lot of People yeah when i first heard it like i guess around covid there were it went viral where Not everyone has a audio like inner voice then not everyone had an inner voice yes and then It came up with not everyone has the visuals yes and i'm like oh right yeah of course I'm probably i don't have visuals i never looked into it to see that it was actually a

Minority of people yeah and then i heard like many many years later where it's like oh aphantasia Only like two percent of people have it, which is probably a lot more.

I think it's more of a discovery because it's still really new in terms of its understanding. It's just a difference in the human condition. Yeah. I like it.

I love it. No. I'm not limited. You know, I have no limitations. I can close my eyes and be like, end of day, off we go. Yeah, open eyes.

Let's go again. Yeah yeah and in my pottery episode that I did um because my pottery maestro he was shocked That i could exist in the world without being able to visualize something he'd never heard of this Idea but then i was able to just completely vibe and just go with the flow so it Was much more playful which is something that in the moment is yeah yeah kind of kind of Needed wow that's really interesting because i think when i try and explain aphantasia to people?

Like, I guess, how would you explain aphantasia, just for people who don't understand? I've described this to a few people, and somebody who's told me they did a test on me Because they were so surprised of this.

They're like, okay, go ahead, visualize a horse. What way is it facing? Yeah. And I'm like, I don't know. That's not even a thing. Yeah. But if you ask me to visualize a force, I'll be like, yeah, I'm visualizing it.

Yeah, sure, sure. But you're thinking about it. You're not seeing it, though, right? I have the...

This is where it gets interesting. Because I do have, no, it's definitely completely nothing there. But I have a visual intelligence and understanding that I utilize. And I've utilized it a lot in my physics studies.

And it's also why I can understand things in higher dimensionality spaces. So I can just as easily visualize four dimensions as I do three. When you say visualize, though.

It's my comprehension of visualization. Yeah, likewise. So it's not like the second monitor that other people have, the picture -in -picture second monitor. Yeah, well, if your eyes are open, like, for example, my husband Dave, if he's driving and he's On the road, and I'm like, can you see a unicorn in the road?

He was like, yep, I can see that picture -on -pickure. Yeah, yeah. It's definitely not that at all, not at all. But I do recognize a visual intelligence, a visual comprehension being different to my other comprehension and my Language comprehension.

But I'm not limited to things I've seen or three dimensions. So I can do rotations in four -dimensional space of objects, and I can understand that. Mm -hmm.

Yeah, so that's a good thing. I think that's wonderful. It is, though,

If you do have such... Something I really find interesting is Qualia. You know about Qualia? Yes, well, yes, in terms of some of the work they do.

Oh, no, not a company. Oh, it's a company! The name of the company is called Qualia! No, there is a company called Qualiar. Yeah, there it is.

But I'm talking about the term qualia where it's like, you know, my green is different to your Green. Oh, OK. Yes. Sorry. I went down company. But yes.

Yeah. Yeah. So because of that fact, how is it possible to tell stories? And so I think of words as lossy compression. Like I have this crazy idea in my head of like my understanding.

And then I compress it into a serial string of words. And I hope you absorb it and decompress it into the same idea. But obviously, that doesn't happen.

It's not true. How can we minimize risks and guarantee outcomes and get things going on? And is this the reason why it's so tricky to do what you do?

Very tricky. I think that when someone is sharing their expression of a story or their experience, it's it's that's Only one part of the experience it's how it's received how it's heard what people do with it So it's that call and response of sharing and then listening and what you make of it in Terms of processing so that in itself is really lots of the skewed bias and complexity in terms What that actually means as you mentioned and there's also like everyone that chooses to share their reflections

Or experience is not to say one is to determine if it's right or wrong. It's also that is one experience amongst potentially a multitude of experiences. And so you also look at what that means for the individual contribution through to a collective and What you can learn from all of those different knowledges and experiences coming through and what does that Mean for us to then make sense of information as the listener who wants to understand what's going On both at the collective as well through to the individual and how do we actually start to

Make sense all that information To see the outcomes or the understanding to make decisions as a result of that contribution yeah does That make sense so it's like it's not just a it's just a simple kind of world it's Like there's so much context that comes into why people choose to share.

It's not just sharing like people can share for the sake of it but naturally it stems from Some sort of context. I'm sharing because or against you know something that I wish to get people to understand further or It's really important to me.

And then how does that actually translate to okay now so what what does that mean for the Receiver? How do we process that? How did we you know actually see action come from the power of story.

Do you speak other languages? I speak two others. Yeah. French and Cantonese. Does it like that storytelling and translation? Is it different across those languages?

There would be because the language itself, the words that are spoken, Some words in, for example, Cantonese, there's just not a single word that you can distill it down To in English.

There's naturally a lot of cultural nuance associated with words and

Even that in itself, I think it is quite different, the stories that are told in the different Languages. Yeah, I'm learning traditional Chinese as an adult now and the way it's being taught to me is Through the history of the evolution of the characters yeah and the way that I found that works For me to understand it semantically is I have to this is very hard for a person with A fantasia take that image and then project it and project it I project it as if it

Existed in ancient Chinese painting then I can understand the context of what it is there and then I can understand meaning there's so much context yeah I have too you have to understand the cultural Context of the words for me to understand the meaning at all.

Because there's so much depth in, like, a single character, for example, even the way it's written, the History of it. I wonder if I have the book here, actually.

And so how many languages do you speak?

English. That's it. Oh, okay. Great. And then learning? Yeah, I'm just learning Chinese now. I can understand Urdu.

I learned how to read arabic as a kid i can never understood what i was saying oh Okay that was that was interesting that's interesting it's because i was um learned the quran i just Learned how to recite it and i didn't actually know what it said but at least you could Read it i could read it and then i could memorize it but never understood still time don't Know what the story he is at all yeah cool well I think that um

Where do you feel like you want to take Folktale Yeah it's a great question but in terms of what that actually mean we really want to be A place where at the heart of everything we do human experience human experience and actually hearing from A whole different group of different people helps change the way we work so from a company perspective We've got some really big aspirations for Folktale is that sort of the questioning in terms of where You want to take it it's like we're talking about communication and moving stories around and i guess

You're a tech company that helps that happen

And there are just we need something for this and it's about where is it going to stand In the future of AI and work and organizations or humanity and people I like you're not just A media company no you're just a tech platform you're, not just as that platform there's clearly something That you're trying to achieve.

Authentic, grounded knowledge. At the same time, I think that in itself, in terms of authentic evidence, how we can then Ensure that that stays at the heart of what we do.

But naturally, there are applications of AI on our platform around verification and making sure that there's a Level of traceability and understanding the story that someone is told actually gets to the decision.

So there's all these kind of nuances in there. But at the heart of what we do, how do we actually transform systems and decisions through authentic Evidence?

I think that's sort of the way. And that's a really new way of working. Right. So am I understanding this right, is that you're trying to provide a richer link to the source?

Richer link, not only to the resource, yes, but also a greater tapestry of different insights coming through. Not necessarily information or the widely available that's out there that you can aggregate, but it's actually in This space of we actually are really wanting to understand how we can make great progress and impact In the work we're doing.

Is it doing, is the work doing what it's meant to do? And we can do that if we can hear from the individuals who have the knowledge of the Experience right okay so it's like you're in if we made this the terrible method of it it's Like mass surveillance and then trying to bring it into a sort of thing to get an insight Yeah well master that's definitely a great kind of analogy that's one side of it so this is About participation and sharing in a way that um understands i'm sharing this because i know it's gonna

Really inform i want to share this willingly this is important this is about reflections and progress not Just things that are working not just the happy stories but these are the things that we think Should change that's really cool I wonder if we could use our platform your platform on meos let's Learn more I think that's what's really great about the emergence of all the things we're doing because Like we're a direct -to -consumer company a phone app I've currently got a thing that is you

Can go into the comm box and message us human beings and give us feedback but if it Was a matter of all of our customers can get feedback in a rich way onto a platform And then we aggregate and then you're going to make decisions that's really yeah it's really really wonderful Tell me like give me an example of how people are using meos right now so I can Kind of see that connection the way people are using me us right now is for capturing their

Thoughts on the fly that they're a need later and staying in the flow of their inspiration so It's on a phone app where whenever you capture one new thing it shows you all of the Things that you captured about that related to it right so it''s like a flash card yeah but For exactly those associated moments so it it strengthens your stride as you move forward.

And given that it's all private, and everywhere is private, it feels like a safe space to use It. Is it through the medium of all audio at the moment?

Or how are these contributions coming through? Text, audio, image, drawing, actually, as well. You can draw on it. I haven't added video yet, but it's on the roadmap to add video.

It's full multimodality and immediate at capturing and play. So when someone has an idea, for example, if I'm, you know, in terms of all of our Different hats that we wear as individuals, if i'm like, all right, so I'm going to talk about This subject versus this subject.

Are you saying that if I want to talk about an idea I have, I'm going to put It into this space, then it starts to keep that all organized in the one?

It's your private space. It's a private studio for thought. And in fact, it's got this messenger on it that I hinted to yeah that also becomes your Thoughts it's a space on your phone that is actually trying to service you and bring you back Into the real world rather than the phone app taking you into the digital world okay so it's The other way around yeah so I put all of my ideas in here and thoughts that are Fragmented and then when I need them later I can go and I can talk to the agent

On it and it synthesizes it understood yeah it just brings it all up and I just get Something and I move on yeah I use it as a CRM I take photos of business cards Yeah and I take a little audio note of how I actually what I want to do and Who to talk to this person on and then I just go talk to the agent and be Like I'm meeting this person what do I need to do it pulls up all the notes gives

Me a little brief immediately that's a really great example of how me ask could help streamline all The different thinkings yeah yeah the thing that I like using it the most for though is like A little polaroid moment where i open up the app and i open it directly to start taking An audio recording so it's immediately recording then i press the camera button to start making a photo Yeah take a little selfie with whoever i'm with and i was already recorded the thing beforehand so

It was doing a bit of a record of all different types of multimedia in that particular thought Process in that pad we call it a pad yeah and then i take the photo and then I write a little note about it like Like I'm writing on the bottom of a Polaroid and I press done.

And most of my meos has these like cute little moments of like I was with my partner. We're at a gig. I started recording. You could hear the music and everything like that.

I captured the photo and then I put a little note of where I was. And that's I call them these little meos moments. Those to me are the things that I find so precious and so important in this product and App.

And it's not getting read by Google or like creepy Google images and anything like that, you know? So it also, I feel like people believe that there is a tradeoff between your privacy and convenience And technology, which there isn't.

That's why meos is here to be able to give the safety and safe passage through this era Of going into AI and this future where we can have these wonderful connectivities.

In terms of the messenger, All your direct messages to each other as well, they cluster in that same view with your notes. So if I write down an idea or something and I've messaged somebody about that same idea, those Two things surface each other.

So you can connect ideas to people and it really surfaces who you need to talk to when You need to talk, to them, not just when you have to.

So it gives you a bit of a proactive based upon. Yeah. Everything about meos is to help you get into a flow. A flow of being present as well, by the sounds of it.

Life flow. And not just the workflow, a life flow. It's a life that for work and to be at the highest performance you have to harmonize it With your life anyway at least it feels that way as an entrepreneur and this is really about Capturing and solidifying your the river of your world yeah and in technology and making sure it's safe Feel safe yeah okay that's really interesting because I'm using a whole bunch of different systems yeah that Could align with what you're doing at MIA.

So like back in the day, I used to put everything into Flickr. Oh, Flickre. Flickrer, remember the throwback of those days? But again, very static images and then share it with friends saying, hey, this is what I did Camping.

Here you go, right? And then I can see like really interesting application for, you know, moments in different sectors right away, Like individual from parents through to the actual schools themselves to lots of different moments and flows.

Yeah. So I share straight from Instagram into meos and I picture that all the images so I can Remember these educational things later. Yeah. And I put these moments with my partner and it keeps them separate automatically.

It's just a beautiful, beautiful melting pot of mess that is always going to be relevant for me To capture and recall. How does it, Because I've been playing with Obsidian as well.

Yeah, Obsidian has a similar notes to that in a different functionality, right like i think definitely researchers And yeah they'll be using that and so it feels like this is that interweaving like an obsidian World but then you still put in yeah you're different obsidian like we can import from obsidian into meos and i think the big difference obsidian is just markdown plain text files yeah better than with Metadata that allows you to link it yeah i actually just posted yesterday on youtube and linkedin about

Meos constellation and i talk about like how the linking that you put in obsidian in fact if You have to use a link as a keyword

That goes to the exact same thing where like a bit of text and a keyword will never In fact tell the story of what the actual context is inside of that just organization of key Moments and it's organization of keywords but for why you don't really actually look at it it's probably Organized in the wrong lens anyway yeah so meos gets around all of that and works in this Semantic higher level space so it's always about meaning hmm yeah yeah i think okay let's talk more

About this i can definitely see some potential collaborations oh really yeah oh my god that's really interesting Okay yeah yeah so it it's a fun product and i think that but for me from like A business perspective of course i want to know what's happening with my users and how they're feeling It and telling stories because complex things and complex products are what we're going to have to move Towards and telling the stories elegantly is the hard part it is really particularly if it's not through

Like a third party but it is done from a whole different group of individuals that otherwise would Never be asked right they never would be invited to share now it's like what are we missing It's not the ones that we are hearing from but it's like who have we not heard from That's the stuff we're really interested in is that is that the folk tale is that the idea Behind it yeah it's about being able to well yeah that's a whole other conversation around the name

Itself right yeah the name himself comes from like you know from our history of ideation um yeah The name our name folk tale is about like different stories different stories that we tell ourselves yeah Yeah so storytelling always comes up like in every other podcast for sure it does yeah i can Get the the fact that this is is this telling a story are we telling a story to Somebody that's listening or are we talking story to each other who is it for exactly yeah it's

Not just and sometimes it's just for yourself as a way of documenting so we don't miss those Moments right i think that's fine too it's just identifying who are we doing it for and if We don't know that's fun we can just keep it in our our little capsule if that is The outcome you're looking to achieve so in the process of creating are you also consuming but

Not mandatory like as like you don't have to but oftentimes there is a huge there's a huge Kind of body of engagement around when I share I want to know who else is sharing as Well and I potentially wish to but again but if you make a capsule it's for yourself you've Consumed your own work consuming your own work but I guess consuming others or my own you're always A consumer of your own because is a sense of pride as well and what you do for

Yourselves right you don't want to just even if you create something you still want to know that There's pride there there's something that i'm really wanting to is that a common theme do you think I think um i think so because um one thing that we emerged is like anyone can press That little red button we all have all the tech and tools and plays there right but actually To create stories that have meaning and elegance um it does require this kind of like all of

The different things that sit around that it's not just oh we can build any tech around it It's actually very human the things we're looking to do i ask because i know artists that just Make art and never publish it and they consume it for themselves there's a sense of pride they Have a sense a pride but then they also have this tearing apart of them at the fact That they don't share it and they kind of want to share it but then they also just

Prefer their own work at the same time so there is I guess a confusion that I've observed Or when I hear people saying this is there any insight that you can think into that it's Like psychies that's a that's a very deep That's that's a bigger one I think reasons for why people decide to share and not share I Think that's in itself quite a big topic yeah I think that's why context really matters it's not just sharing or gathering for the sake of it It's understanding the context at different stages of that journey and the process itself could be just for

Myself or the process itself is that's it like regardless of a destination there's joy and enjoyment in The middle space so it's not one to say this is the right or wrong way it's just Like If we're looking at what you know organizations individuals you know groups are trying to achieve I think It really is contextual to what your outcomes are.

Yeah I suppose I ask because like if you if there are groups that aren't sharing and their Voices we will never hear

Their voices are there. It's just more that it's not that they don't have stories to share everyone does I think it's Just a matter of is is there trust is there An understanding and so that trust is also One of the biggest things that can be make or break Whether someone decides to share or not Share um what do they need to trust well for example in our world if if if

If we're asking a certain group to share stories but they don't necessarily trust who's asking why they're Asking where it's going what implications am i safe is my story going to be widely shared like All of those questions around am i able to share something and where i know where it'S going To go um trust and confidence are often some of the bigger things, which are very human.

And so when you're looking at some of the things we look at, like we really are looking To connect those who know with those who need to know, Those who know and have things to share, there's still an embodiment of okay, well, what does that Mean to share?

Who is it sharing with? There's this trust. Trust is really important as part of that equation. And just similar back to your example of the artist, if I choose to just do it myself In my world because that's that's my that's my trust bubble great that's nothing wrong with that it's Just understanding where trust sits in the overall equation Yeah cool that's a really good place to end I think I think that we are in a Trust economy we are and it's gonna get it is getting more and more relevant

Trust is something that i feel is

Easier to understand when we have it related to a person rather than an entity which is also Something that I think we're gonna have to tackle in the future too I think that's already happening Now I think faster than it's um than we realize yeah so well we'll work that out yeah As usual we're entrepreneurs yeah and uh do you have anything else you want to add or say No

I think we'll just kind of keep unpacking as we go is there anything how about you is Any questions or any final thoughts no other than like I think trust is such a good place To end because I before we started recording we spoke about the trust economy it's so and like meos is all about trust about making sure that your stories and things are safe it's not going To be taken by a big data company the other podcasts i suppose were a episodes where it

Was about being able to get your if your art is stolen what does it even mean is It never safe to be able to do that versus is this just because we still see ourselves As individuals rather than collectives and ego there seems to be themes that are coming up that I Don't think any of us have answers to no and that is the entire of these conversations Because if I had an answer then I would just no that's it I think just staying open To that curiosity and saying that we don't have the answers and that's okay it's the best thing

Today that's the best thing and then just I think that's just so human that's that's why we Just keep unpacking and play in that space yeah well thank you so much thank you